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Appolonian Priciness and its collapse into Dionysian Madness. Bernard Lietaer and the Integral Analysis of Money.

   May 20, 2018  2 Comments

    • Wesley February 2, 2016 at 10:53 am # 
      This guy is quite sensible…
      Bravo! Bernard Lietaer – Why money needs to change now! –Published on Nov 29, 2014
      The current monopoly of conventional money is a main source for unsustainable behaviors. New currency designs – among which crypto-currencies, but not only crypto-currencies ! – can contribute to make the necessary shifts more smoothly.
      Discusses: inherent monetary instability; how the world’s economies are steaming straight for a wall. Mentions specifically the mathematical compulsory necessity of growth (will you accept the proposition from HIM, JohnG???); and the systematic redirection and concentration of wealth.
      REPLY
      • Roger February 2, 2016 at 1:15 pm # 
        This question and answer is an essential insight I think.
        REPLY
        • Roger February 2, 2016 at 1:26 pm # 
          This question and answer is an essential insight I think.
          Particulalry in the supplementary question and answer at 1.02.30 when Lietar says the Maoist, Soviet and Western systems of creating money was the same as debt at interest the only difference in the ownership of the banks..
          REPLY
    • JohnG February 2, 2016 at 9:24 pm # 
      “Academically MMT has not been challenged. And from what I study on it, they are right!”
      Shame he didn’t study MMT before he was involved in the disaster that is the euro.
      He’ll never wash that blood off his hands.
      REPLY
  2. Roger February 2, 2016 at 12:59 pm # 
    Thanks chaps for the introduction to Bernard Lietaer. Very clearly expressed vison of the problem and the directions to diversify into.
    REPLY
    • JohnG February 3, 2016 at 9:44 am # 
      Yeah, the problem isn’t unemployment and poverty. It’s all about rich, old, lazy, fat, musically talentless, white men preserving their unearned wealth at the expense of others.
      The reality is that crypto currencies are at best ponzi schemes and largely exist to facilitate tax evasion and promote illicit drug and arms trafficking and human sex slave trafficking.
      There’s your anti-democracy rationale right there.
      REPLY
      • Roger February 3, 2016 at 10:16 am # 
        MMT auto bot, programmed default response.3
        REPLY
        • JohnG February 3, 2016 at 10:34 am # 
          Does David know that you’ve linked your defamatory, and possibly libelous nonsense to his blog?
          Not too bright are you?
          REPLY
          • Roger February 3, 2016 at 10:48 am # 
            MMT auto bot, programmed default response.4
          • JohnG February 3, 2016 at 11:01 am # 
            What an utterly pathetic excuse for a human being you are.
            Yet more evidence that thee block chainers are easy marks for the security services.
            Anarchists my arse.
  3. Roger February 3, 2016 at 11:22 am # 
    MMT auto bot, programmed default response.5
    The examined life is not worth living.
    “It takes more courage to examine the dark corners of your own soul than it does for a soldier to fight on a battlefield”
    ― W.B. Yeats
    Original track written and produced by Roger Lewis, featuring Cornel Wests amazing dialogue from the Movie the Examined Life.
    I discovered Prof. West through a Joint Interview with Simon Critchley and Cornel West on how to love.
    http://pastebin.com/u8dhRUrW
    Verse 3 (Paranoid):
    We in the middle of a war and got a mission
    Exposing these ho’s as controlled opposition
    Listen, I ain’t hating or dissin
    I’m just trying to expand your vision (for real)
    It’s sickening the conditions we live in
    They’re trying to transform the planet to a prison
    Now most of these sheep, is half way asleep
    Sitting in their living rooms, watching their television (yea)
    But some of us is different
    We read the newspapers thinking who the fuck they kidding?
    We hate these politicians and it doesn’t really matter
    If their last name is Bush, Obama or Clinton
    We saw the twin towers and we thought – DEMOLITION!
    The powers that be said – BOY YOU GOTTA GET EM!
    You can tell em anything to make em feel like victims
    So long as Jesuits and Zionists are never mentioned
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYxcdQeAmC4
    Check it out!
    I revolve around science.
    What are we talking about here?
    Do your math
    One.. t-t-two.. three, four James Brown
    What are we talking about here?
    REPLY
    • Roger February 3, 2016 at 12:32 pm # 
      CRITCHLEY 2012 SHITISFUCKEDUPANDBULLSHIT
      The Anarchist Turn – Simon Critchley
      Democracy 2011
      Pontificate, Certificate, Defecate.
      Agitate, Aggregate,, Obviscate.
      Repudiate, Obviate,Opiate,
      Satiate Fascist Hate
      HATE HATE HATE
      Pontious Pilate, Judas Kiss
      Politics of envy, Divide and Rule
      3 legged Milking Stool
      Mushroom Clouded vision
      Dark Room
      No Hope
      Fed Shite
      Ponzi State, Economic Bubble
      Death of Ethics, No Spiritual Revolution
      Satanic Absolution, Hypocritical Contortion.
      Legalised Extortion.
      Keep in Unstable , Wear your skin like Sable
      3 legged stools and uphill tables
      Tables turned and loyalties spurned
      Dark Room, No hope , Fed SHITE!
      DEMOCRACY? YEAH FUCKIN RIGHT::::
      REPLY
  4. Wesley – with Clint Ballinger February 3, 2016 at 4:24 pm # 
    Dissent – it’s a funny thing! Imagine focusing on ASSENT!
    Imagine focusing one’s attentions on areas of positive overlap! Imagine – MMT and Positive Money together, both now detox’d from their respective Kool-Aids having a cuppa’ together! Imagine, finding out that the most common criticisms of the PM propositions (by MMTers) are indicative of MMTers’ inability to read! Imagine, critiques of MMT (the horror!), also clearly originating from a lack of understanding (Krugman-style) of the actual reality of fraudulent, endogenous credit-creation in the private banking system! (PMers DO know how the system works, JohnG – no need to worry about any fractional-reserving money-multipliers over there!)
    Ballinger also notes that both MMT and Positive Money are often unfairly criticized:
    “Many of the concerns with the PM proposal I have seen brought up are actually discussed in some detail in the PM literature…and it often seems that critics of the plan simply do not closely read PM explanations of the details of the plan.”
    “There are plenty of critiques of MMT – most of which are completely misguided and due to fundamental misunderstandings of the economy due to orthodox economic blinders.”
    Subsequently, concerns regarding both approaches are laid out. For Positive Money, Ballinger asks:
    “Would the new system of exclusively state money be able to create a fair system for large business loans? How would that system differ from the current system?”
    And for Post-Keynesians and MMTers, Ballinger asks:
    “Does the fact that endogenously created private credit-money dwarfs state money restrict the ability of the government to act in the public purpose in the way MMT believes?
    “Does this render MMT ideas on the role of the state in the economy unworkable? Does the inherent instability and pro-cyclical nature of endogenous money have too many social costs? Does the endogenous money system stealthily but inexorably lead to regulatory capture? …Lead to unsustainable levels of private debt? To highly inequitable wealth distributions?”
    “]
    Imagine – having a civilized conversation without waving a chain-saw around…
    REPLY
    • Wesley – Not waving a chainsaw! February 3, 2016 at 4:50 pm # 
      I’ve just noticed that Mr. Balliger has “approved” of the analysis as being clear and thoughtful… Funny, no comments from the MMT world, with or without chainsaws!
      From the comments to that same link:
      http://positivemoney.org/2015/03/positive-money-versus-modern-monetary-theory/
      [
      Clint Ballinger • 7 months ago
      Just now ran across this – excellent article, thank you for breaking my article down in a clear and thoughtful way. I may have a few responses when I have some time.
      I guess my main one would be that I agree that the purpose of PM reforms is not to create a loanable funds system per se (PM goals are about power, dependency and accountability as you say). But the effect, in a language MMT and Circuit Theorists will understand (as well as even orthodox ‘economists’), is to create a loanable funds system, and my intent on highlighting this term is to unify/clarify the dialogue between the various groups involved. The result of changing to a loanable funds system in the way PM proposes would be to return the power to create new money to an accountable body in the public interest & to remove the dependency on debt-fuelled growth.
      Cheers, Clint
      ]
      Hmmmm? Dangerous thoughts eh?!! Removing the ability of the banking system to create debt-based fiduciary media from thin air. Thoughts like that can lead to revolutionary new paradigms. OMG!
      REPLY
      • Roger February 3, 2016 at 6:14 pm # 
        This,
        not this
        Verse 2: (Payday Monsanto)
        Aye yo Chris,
        I can feel ya like a hundred and twenty percent
        Haters and infiltrators are hell bent
        I wanna tie them up and make them repent
        And then find out by whooom they were sent
        These days they seem all out
        And if you know Payday, you know he’s balls out
        Alex Jones, he can’t stand criticism
        And I don’t trust him as far as I can spit it at em
        That’s the way it’s gotta be
        Until we know the details of the Council For National Policy
        I can only take a stab at it
        But what I do know is their agenda is very elaborate
        So who the fuck can we trust?
        When it comes down to the grizzle my nizzle
        I’m ready to bust
        Til the clip is empty
        These days I don’t even trust Gerald Celente
        Cointel Pro
        This is a famous interview Chomsky gave inthe UK, this Cointelpro part goes with the Chris geo track the whole Marr Chomsky interview is worth watching.
        REPLY
    • JohnG February 3, 2016 at 8:49 pm # 
      I tried to have a civilised conversation with you. All I got in return was a tsunami of insults, strawmen and incoherent bullshit.
      Clint Ballinger and PM aren’t saying anything that chimes with your ideological stance.
      Quite the opposite. The only thing you have in common with PM is that they criticise MMT. And that fits in with your crusade.
      But then you, like PM don’t understand the monetary system. They are probably less confused than you. But confused they are.
      I’ve tried to explain to you and Roger where they and you both are going wrong but neither of you has acknowledged the point.
      I suspect because it’s inconvenient to your faux moral outrage.
      You’ve all ‘discovered’ that banks create credit out of thin air.
      That’s great. But there’s much more that you seemingly refuse to entertain so you fall back into your neoclassical mythology (and totally manufactured history) and end up with an entirely incoherent, muddled view.
      PM sees the symptoms but misdiagnoses the problem because their basic understanding of the system is false. So they’re trying to treat the wrong illness with quackery.
      And they, like ‘libertarians’ are being led by oligarchs. Funny that.
      Revolutions led by oligarchs probably aren’t going to go the way the followers think.
      REPLY

An Integral View on Money and Financial CrashesBy Bernard LietaerOctober 2005 

blietaer@earthlink.net 

2. The more hyper-rational a market, the more likely it is to get caught in a mania.Mythologically, as shown in the Bacchae, it is the Apollonian ruler, not those whoembrace the “messiness” of the Dionysian space, who end up being dismembered.In other words, the more we defend ourselves against the Dionysian uncertainty, the morelikely that we attract his “madness.” This could explain why the most sophisticatedmarkets are the ones who get caught in manias. It is because of their very sophisticationthat the illusion of control is most prevailing. The more tools we accumulate to ensure apermanent Apollonian certainty, the more likely it is that we will attract a Dionysianoutburst. 

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